Discussion:
[ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development with Rails
(too old to reply)
Dave Thomas
2006-05-02 16:35:24 UTC
Permalink
ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
===========================================================

http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/


Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
are we to disagree?

To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we're delighted to announce
the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
major update to the original, and we're releasing it as a beta book.

So far, we've rewritten the Depot application chapters. They now
illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
and "has_many :through". We've lost the SQL in favor of migrations,
and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps its
sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
the new integration testing framework.

Over the coming months, we'll be updating the rest of the book. The
Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
illustrate all we've learned about writing Rails applications in the
last year.

All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
chapters and largely rewritten old ones.

Today, we're releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with all
our beta books, you'll be able to download updates as we add new
content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.

However, we're doing this beta book slightly differently to our
other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
available, we're instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
content with that of the original, first edition. That way you'll be
able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
header.

From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you'll be getting
the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you'll have the
choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
that will ship when it's ready.

If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
to the beta book. We'll be sending you instructions by email over
the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you'd be
amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)

Visit the book's page at http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how the
process works.

We're really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
information on the amazing Rails framework. If you're a Rails
developer, we think you'll find this book an invaluable companion.


Regards



Dave Thomas
Tom Mornini
2006-05-02 17:27:22 UTC
Permalink
Great news!

I'll be ordering a new copy today.

Thanks, Dave!
--
-- Tom Mornini
Post by Dave Thomas
ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
===========================================================
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/
Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
are we to disagree?
To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we're delighted to announce
the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
major update to the original, and we're releasing it as a beta book.
So far, we've rewritten the Depot application chapters. They now
illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
and "has_many :through". We've lost the SQL in favor of migrations,
and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps its
sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
the new integration testing framework.
Over the coming months, we'll be updating the rest of the book. The
Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
illustrate all we've learned about writing Rails applications in the
last year.
All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
chapters and largely rewritten old ones.
Today, we're releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with all
our beta books, you'll be able to download updates as we add new
content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.
However, we're doing this beta book slightly differently to our
other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
available, we're instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
content with that of the original, first edition. That way you'll be
able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
header.
From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you'll be getting
the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you'll have the
choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
that will ship when it's ready.
If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
to the beta book. We'll be sending you instructions by email over
the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you'd be
amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
Visit the book's page at http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how the
process works.
We're really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
information on the amazing Rails framework. If you're a Rails
developer, we think you'll find this book an invaluable companion.
Regards
Dave Thomas
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Giles Bowkett
2006-05-02 17:51:25 UTC
Permalink
This is very good news.

Can I voice a request?

In "Getting Real," the 37Signals guys advocate that you code the
interface first.

In my personal copy of "Agile Web Development with Rails," I scrawled
a note to that effect -- something like "start here!! design from
templates!!!" -- in the chapter on Active View. This was before I ever
saw "Getting Real."

I can't remember how I figured it out.

I do remember it took a lot of thinking.

I've been making web apps for about a decade. For some reason, I don't
even remember how, I pulled that insight out of the design, and saw it
validated later in "Getting Real."

A lot of people who are getting into Rails haven't been making web
apps for a decade, and a lot of people won't read "Getting Real."
(Everybody should, but not everybody will.)

Consequently you can look at me figuring this out and realize that a
lot of other people won't necessarily have the same insight.

The framework was developed in the context of design-first coding, and
consequently is very well-suited to design-first coding. I think if
you encourage newbies to use a design-first approach, it'll soften the
learning curve for them, and I also think that if you encourage
experts to use a design-first approach, they'll produce better work.

My request is that you re-order the chapters, placing the chapter on
Active View first, the chapter on Active Controller second, and the
chapter on Active Record last.

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Post by Tom Mornini
Great news!
I'll be ordering a new copy today.
Thanks, Dave!
--
-- Tom Mornini
Post by Dave Thomas
ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
===========================================================
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/
Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
are we to disagree?
To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we're delighted to announce
the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
major update to the original, and we're releasing it as a beta book.
So far, we've rewritten the Depot application chapters. They now
illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
and "has_many :through". We've lost the SQL in favor of migrations,
and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps its
sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
the new integration testing framework.
Over the coming months, we'll be updating the rest of the book. The
Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
illustrate all we've learned about writing Rails applications in the
last year.
All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
chapters and largely rewritten old ones.
Today, we're releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with all
our beta books, you'll be able to download updates as we add new
content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.
However, we're doing this beta book slightly differently to our
other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
available, we're instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
content with that of the original, first edition. That way you'll be
able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
header.
From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you'll be getting
the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you'll have the
choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
that will ship when it's ready.
If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
to the beta book. We'll be sending you instructions by email over
the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you'd be
amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
Visit the book's page at http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how the
process works.
We're really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
information on the amazing Rails framework. If you're a Rails
developer, we think you'll find this book an invaluable companion.
Regards
Dave Thomas
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Joseph Kowalski
2006-05-02 19:46:27 UTC
Permalink
I'll second the request for a discount on the second edition for first
edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store, it would be
hard to track who bought the book from other sources). Yes, the new edition
has substantial improvements, and I fully believe in supporting all the very
hard work that has gone into this, but I would have a hard time paying the
full price for the new book less than six months from when I purchased
it.....
Post by Giles Bowkett
This is very good news.
Can I voice a request?
In "Getting Real," the 37Signals guys advocate that you code the
interface first.
In my personal copy of "Agile Web Development with Rails," I scrawled
a note to that effect -- something like "start here!! design from
templates!!!" -- in the chapter on Active View. This was before I ever
saw "Getting Real."
I can't remember how I figured it out.
I do remember it took a lot of thinking.
I've been making web apps for about a decade. For some reason, I don't
even remember how, I pulled that insight out of the design, and saw it
validated later in "Getting Real."
A lot of people who are getting into Rails haven't been making web
apps for a decade, and a lot of people won't read "Getting Real."
(Everybody should, but not everybody will.)
Consequently you can look at me figuring this out and realize that a
lot of other people won't necessarily have the same insight.
The framework was developed in the context of design-first coding, and
consequently is very well-suited to design-first coding. I think if
you encourage newbies to use a design-first approach, it'll soften the
learning curve for them, and I also think that if you encourage
experts to use a design-first approach, they'll produce better work.
My request is that you re-order the chapters, placing the chapter on
Active View first, the chapter on Active Controller second, and the
chapter on Active Record last.
--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Post by Tom Mornini
Great news!
I'll be ordering a new copy today.
Thanks, Dave!
--
-- Tom Mornini
Post by Dave Thomas
ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
===========================================================
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/
Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
are we to disagree?
To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we're delighted to announce
the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
major update to the original, and we're releasing it as a beta book.
So far, we've rewritten the Depot application chapters. They now
illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
and "has_many :through". We've lost the SQL in favor of migrations,
and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps its
sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
the new integration testing framework.
Over the coming months, we'll be updating the rest of the book. The
Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
illustrate all we've learned about writing Rails applications in the
last year.
All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
chapters and largely rewritten old ones.
Today, we're releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with all
our beta books, you'll be able to download updates as we add new
content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.
However, we're doing this beta book slightly differently to our
other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
available, we're instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
content with that of the original, first edition. That way you'll be
able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
header.
From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you'll be getting
the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you'll have the
choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
that will ship when it's ready.
If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
to the beta book. We'll be sending you instructions by email over
the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you'd be
amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
Visit the book's page at http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how the
process works.
We're really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
information on the amazing Rails framework. If you're a Rails
developer, we think you'll find this book an invaluable companion.
Regards
Dave Thomas
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Larry White
2006-05-02 19:51:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Kowalski
I'll second the request for a discount on the second edition for first
edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store..... I
would have a hard time paying the full price for the new book less than six
months from when I purchased it.....
ditto.
I'd be much more likely to buy a different rails book than to pay full price
for an update of this one - even though I was very pleased with the first
edition.
PJ Hyett
2006-05-03 16:45:09 UTC
Permalink
If Rails hasn't made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
edition came out, don't bother buying the second edition.

Sincerely,
PJ Hyett
http://pjhyett.com
Scott Barron
2006-05-03 17:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by PJ Hyett
If Rails hasn't made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
edition came out, don't bother buying the second edition.
Sincerely,
PJ Hyett
http://pjhyett.com
This is the best response yet, I love it.

-Scott
Raymond Brigleb
2006-05-03 17:50:44 UTC
Permalink
I would gladly subscribe to this book for annual updates!!!

One thing I'd love to see, though, is the color bars removed from the
top/bottom of the PDF. It's a massive waste of ink when printing them
out, and I notice they're not in the printed version. Any chance of
removing those from your PDFs?
Gregory Seidman
2006-05-03 18:34:11 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 09:45:09AM -0700, PJ Hyett wrote:
} If Rails hasn't made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
} edition came out, don't bother buying the second edition.

Hm. Rails got me a new, higher paying job. I guess I should buy the new
version. That's pretty convincing.

} Sincerely,
} PJ Hyett
--Greg
Sebastian Friedrich
2006-05-05 21:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by PJ Hyett
If Rails hasn't made you $23.50 in the last 6 months since the first
edition came out, don't bother buying the second edition.
This really should have been the last word in this discussion. Let's
try again.


Sebastian
John Tsombakos
2006-05-02 19:52:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Kowalski
I'll second the request for a discount on the second edition for first
edition buyers (for those that bought from the pragmatic store, it would be
hard to track who bought the book from other sources). Yes, the new edition
has substantial improvements, and I fully believe in supporting all the very
hard work that has gone into this, but I would have a hard time paying the
full price for the new book less than six months from when I purchased
it.....
I agree. Short of ripping the cover off my copy, which I purchased at
the local Barnes & Nobel, I don't know how they'd give a discount for
the first version.

I'll probably just end up getting the PDF only, so as to not spend
another $50 or so on another copy. Just can't curl up on the couch as
much...
Chris T
2006-05-02 17:50:30 UTC
Permalink
That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for those
who have already bought the first edition in book form.
Post by Dave Thomas
ANNOUNCING AGILE WEB DEVELOPMENT WITH RAILS, SECOND EDITION
===========================================================
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2/
Rails has changed a lot since we announced the first edition of the
book a year ago. DHH says that the 1.1 release "boasts more than 500
fixes, tweaks, and features from more than 100 contributors." Who
are we to disagree?
To celebrate the release of Rails 1.1, we're delighted to announce
the second edition of Agile Web Development with Rails. This is a
major update to the original, and we're releasing it as a beta book.
So far, we've rewritten the Depot application chapters. They now
illustrate new Rails features such as RJS templates for Ajax support
and "has_many :through". We've lost the SQL in favor of migrations,
and even include an rxml example, so we can show off RESTful
interfaces and "respond_to." It uses the new rake tasks, keeps its
sessions in the database, and generally tries to follow all the
latest Rails programming recommendations (including dropping things
that are likely to become deprecated over time). The testing chapter
supports transactional fixtures, shows new features, and illustrates
the new integration testing framework.
Over the coming months, we'll be updating the rest of the book. The
Rails core chapters will be revamped to show all the changes to
ActiveRecord, ActionController, and ActionView. The Web2.0 chapter
will be rewritten to illustrate RJS; and the deployment chapter
rewritten to use Capistrano and to show how to set Rails up in
production. All in all, the book will be significantly updated to
illustrate all we've learned about writing Rails applications in the
last year.
All this represents a bunch of totally new content---entirely new
chapters and largely rewritten old ones.
Today, we're releasing this new edition as a beta book. As with all
our beta books, you'll be able to download updates as we add new
content, and then, after we complete the book, continue to download
changes to this second edition. We anticipate that the book will be
finished in the fall, at which point the paper copies will ship.
However, we're doing this beta book slightly differently to our
other ones. Rather than releasing just the new content as it becomes
available, we're instead releasing a hybrid that mixes the new
content with that of the original, first edition. That way you'll be
able to use the beta book as a complete reference that gets updated
over time. Each chapter is color coded: ones with a gray header are
from the first edition, while those from the second have a red
header.
From May 2nd onwards, if you buy the AWDwR PDF, you'll be getting
the beta book version. If you want the paper book, you'll have the
choice of buying the first edition now or buying the second edition
that will ship when it's ready.
If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
to the beta book. We'll be sending you instructions by email over
the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you'd be
amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
Visit the book's page at http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails2
to see samples from the new chapters and check out the changes for
yourself. Be sure to visit the "in-place upgrade" link to see how the
process works.
We're really excited to be able to offer the most up-to-date
information on the amazing Rails framework. If you're a Rails
developer, we think you'll find this book an invaluable companion.
Regards
Dave Thomas
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Jim Gay
2006-05-02 18:31:20 UTC
Permalink
I'm new to the list and ruby/rails and going through Agile Web
Development with Rails
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask, but I can't seem to get
past an error in the development of Depot with my add_to_cart method.
I'm getting the error "undefined local variable or method
'product_id' for #<Cart......."

I've compared to the provided source code and I have everything
correct as far as I can tell.
Can someone point me in the right direction to solve this?

Thanks!

-Jim
Conrad Taylor
2006-05-02 18:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Hey Jim, you should reference the errata for the section that section of the
book. Thus, you can find the errata in the following location:

http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails2/errata

Peace,

-Conrad
Post by Jim Gay
I'm new to the list and ruby/rails and going through Agile Web
Development with Rails
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask, but I can't seem to get
past an error in the development of Depot with my add_to_cart method.
I'm getting the error "undefined local variable or method
'product_id' for #<Cart......."
I've compared to the provided source code and I have everything
correct as far as I can tell.
Can someone point me in the right direction to solve this?
Thanks!
-Jim
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Dave Thomas
2006-05-02 18:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conrad Taylor
Hey Jim, you should reference the errata for the section that
section of the book. Thus, you can find the errata in the
http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails2/errata
If it's the second edition, or
Post by Conrad Taylor
http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails/errata
for the first.

Dave
Jim Gay
2006-05-02 19:07:45 UTC
Permalink
My apologies. I should have mentioned that I'm using the first
edition, and that the errata is a bit of a pain to search through.

I've tried restarting the server, clearing cookies, everything
mentioned in the errata as far as I can tell.

I can add to the cart, but as soon as I add a second item (either of
the same product id or new product id) I get an error.
I'll gather my specific error and post that...

Thanks for the help!
Post by Dave Thomas
Post by Conrad Taylor
Hey Jim, you should reference the errata for the section that
section of the book. Thus, you can find the errata in the
http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails2/errata
If it's the second edition, or
Post by Conrad Taylor
http://books.pragprog.com/titles/rails/errata
for the first.
Brian Chamberlain
2006-05-02 18:46:26 UTC
Permalink
Try restarting your rails server. I vaguely remember running into a problem
like this myself and I think a restart fixed it. I believe it had something
to do with the server holding onto a cached model of the Cart class after I
had made some changes to it...or something like that.

-Brian
Post by Jim Gay
I'm new to the list and ruby/rails and going through Agile Web
Development with Rails
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to ask, but I can't seem to get
past an error in the development of Depot with my add_to_cart method.
I'm getting the error "undefined local variable or method
'product_id' for #<Cart......."
I've compared to the provided source code and I have everything
correct as far as I can tell.
Can someone point me in the right direction to solve this?
Thanks!
-Jim
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Scott Barron
2006-05-03 04:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris T
That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
comes out. If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD
(or whatever) is the standard. If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not
get a discount when the 4GHz comes out. If I buy a 15" macbook pro,
I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same
price! Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new
edition of a book comes out. New happens, be grateful there *is* a
second edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up
to date with the fast pace of Rails. It's $23, not the $2300 or
$23000 we get shafted on every year on the afore mentioned products.

Everyone, bow your heads and pretend to be serious.

-s
Brian Hughes
2006-05-03 04:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Barron
If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
comes out. If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD
(or whatever) is the standard. If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not
get a discount when the 4GHz comes out. If I buy a 15" macbook
pro, I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for
the same price! Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a
new edition of a book comes out. New happens, be grateful there
*is* a second edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep
the book up to date with the fast pace of Rails. It's $23, not the
$2300 or $23000 we get shafted on every year on the afore mentioned
products.
Well said!

+1

-Brian
Conrad Taylor
2006-05-03 05:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Hey, I second what Scott said. Furthermore, I'm supporting the
efforts of the authors who are keeping this gem, 'Agile Web
Development with Rails', up to date by purchasing it. People on this
list say that there's not enough documentation. Guess what? Here's
some documentation that happens to be in the form of a book. What
would you do if this book wasn't updated? You would have to rely upon
getting all that valuable information from the internet. I don't know
about you but I like having a desk reference that I can refer to time
and time again. When I go into a bookstore, I don't see many books on
Ruby and/Rails but the few that I do see are simply execellent. I
couldn't and wouldn't say that about the other languages as a whole
eventhough they dominate the bookshelves. In short, please support
the efforts of the authors if you can to make sure that we see
continued development of Ruby and Rails texts.

Peace,

-Conrad
Post by Brian Hughes
Post by Scott Barron
If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
comes out. If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD
(or whatever) is the standard. If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not
get a discount when the 4GHz comes out. If I buy a 15" macbook
pro, I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for
the same price! Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a
new edition of a book comes out. New happens, be grateful there
*is* a second edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep
the book up to date with the fast pace of Rails. It's $23, not the
$2300 or $23000 we get shafted on every year on the afore mentioned
products.
Well said!
+1
-Brian
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Mark Reginald James
2006-05-03 20:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Barron
Post by Chris T
That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
comes out. If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD (or
whatever) is the standard. If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not get a
discount when the 4GHz comes out. If I buy a 15" macbook pro, I do not
get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same price!
Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new edition of a
book comes out. New happens, be grateful there *is* a second edition,
In the case of the PDF version I don't think they're valid analogies.
For a PDF book the cost of reproducing and delivering the goods is tiny
fraction of the development costs. A better analogy would be software,
for which upgrade discounts are usually offered.
Post by Scott Barron
and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up to date with the
fast pace of Rails. It's $23, not the $2300 or $23000 we get shafted
on every year on the afore mentioned products.
I found the First Edition great value for money. It saved me a great
deal of time by bootstrapping my Ruby and Rails knowledge, and has
been a very useful reference to the framework. However I would only
buy the full-priced PDF of the Second Edition in recognition of
this value I received from the First Edition. I could not justify
it in relative terms for the new content, particularly now that I
can learn from rawer sources.

But you're right -- $23 is not much in absolute terms. The update would
only have to save you a small amount of time before it payed for itself.
--
We develop, watch us RoR, in numbers too big to ignore.
Pau Garcia i Quiles
2006-05-03 17:12:45 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday 03 May 2006 22:33, Mark Reginald James wrote:

First of all, I will be buying AWDWR2 very soon (PDF). I also purchased AWDWR,
just as it was released.

I think all this discussion is due to a slightly bad strategy by the
PragProgs. Should they have provided a mere 10% discount on the PDF for
owners of the first edition (either paper or PDF), everybody would be happy
and every 1st-ed purchaser would be purchasing the 2nd-ed. By not providing
this tiny discount, there are some discontent people who would be buying
whatever book on Rails except AWDWR2.

There was somebody asking why would someone buy the book at Amazon rather than
at pragmaticprogrammers.com. Well, the answer is easy: Amazon discounts
heavily on the book and shipping rates are lower. It's way more
cost-efficient to buy the paper book at Amazon, then buy the PDF at the (60%)
discounted rate for paper-owners (it's even cheaper than buying only the
paper book at pragmaticprogrammers.com). If I were the PragProgs, I would
only sell the PDF at a discounted rate to those people who bought the
dead-tree book at pragmaticprogrammers.com. Of course, buying the combo
through pragmaticprogrammers.com has the advange of having the beta PDF since
day one.
Post by Mark Reginald James
Post by Scott Barron
Post by Chris T
That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
comes out. If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD (or
whatever) is the standard. If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not get a
discount when the 4GHz comes out. If I buy a 15" macbook pro, I do not
get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same price!
Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new edition of a
book comes out. New happens, be grateful there *is* a second edition,
In the case of the PDF version I don't think they're valid analogies.
For a PDF book the cost of reproducing and delivering the goods is tiny
fraction of the development costs. A better analogy would be software,
for which upgrade discounts are usually offered.
Post by Scott Barron
and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up to date with the
fast pace of Rails. It's $23, not the $2300 or $23000 we get shafted
on every year on the afore mentioned products.
I found the First Edition great value for money. It saved me a great
deal of time by bootstrapping my Ruby and Rails knowledge, and has
been a very useful reference to the framework. However I would only
buy the full-priced PDF of the Second Edition in recognition of
this value I received from the First Edition. I could not justify
it in relative terms for the new content, particularly now that I
can learn from rawer sources.
But you're right -- $23 is not much in absolute terms. The update would
only have to save you a small amount of time before it payed for itself.
- --
Pau Garcia i Quiles
http://www.elpauer.org
(Due to the amount of work, I usually need 10 days to answer)
Gregory Seidman
2006-05-03 12:01:10 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 12:08:38AM -0400, Scott Barron wrote:
}
} On May 2, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Chris T wrote:
}
} >That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
} >those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
}
} If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
} comes out.

I was actually more convinced that the new edition was worth the full price
before you said that. As a matter of fact, many car companies offer
"loyalty" incentives where if you already own that make of car, you get a
discount on your next one. Furthermore, almost every car dealership accepts
tradeins of previous models for a discount on your new car.

} If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD
} (or whatever) is the standard. If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not
} get a discount when the 4GHz comes out. If I buy a 15" macbook pro,
} I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same
} price! Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new
} edition of a book comes out.

There's a reasonable argument for both sides. It is ultimately up to the
publishers. We'll buy it, or not, based on our needs and its price.

} New happens, be grateful there *is* a second edition, and that Dave is
} busting his hump to keep the book up to date with the fast pace of
} Rails. It's $23, not the $2300 or $23000 we get shafted on every year
} on the afore mentioned products.
}
} Everyone, bow your heads and pretend to be serious.

*snicker* yessir

} -s
--Greg

} _______________________________________________
} Rails mailing list
} Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/***@public.gmane.org
} http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
}
Derrick Spell
2006-05-03 13:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Seidman
I was actually more convinced that the new edition was worth the full price
before you said that. As a matter of fact, many car companies offer
"loyalty" incentives where if you already own that make of car, you get a
discount on your next one. Furthermore, almost every car dealership accepts
tradeins of previous models for a discount on your new car.
Actually, it's not a discount. The dealer buys your old car, and you
use the proceeds to help pay for the new car.

How about this: Sell your first edition on eBay, and use the
proceeds (which, as in the case of a used car, will be depreciated)
to help pay for the second edition. There is definitely a market for
used books ... just look for a poor college student!

-Derrick Spell
Chris T
2006-05-03 13:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derrick Spell
Post by Gregory Seidman
I was actually more convinced that the new edition was worth the full price
before you said that. As a matter of fact, many car companies offer
"loyalty" incentives where if you already own that make of car, you get a
discount on your next one. Furthermore, almost every car dealership accepts
tradeins of previous models for a discount on your new car.
Actually, it's not a discount. The dealer buys your old car, and you
use the proceeds to help pay for the new car.
How about this: Sell your first edition on eBay, and use the proceeds
(which, as in the case of a used car, will be depreciated) to help pay
for the second edition. There is definitely a market for used books
... just look for a poor college student!
-Derrick Spell
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
I agree the new car trade-in is not a discount, but the software analogy
holds up. Also it's not uncommon for companies to reward past purchasers
with such a discount (call it a loyalty discount, or whatever) a) as a
thank you, and b) because it gives the customer a warm fuzzy feeling and
thus ties them emotionally to the company/brand (increasing likelihood
of further purchases).

As for me, I'll prob buy the PDF (as a prev poster said, $23 is not a
huge amount in absolute terms, and the first edition was an excellent
book), but prob won't feel much of that warm fuzzy valued customer
feeling when paying for it. Just my $0.02
Kerry Buckley
2006-05-03 20:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derrick Spell
How about this: Sell your first edition on eBay, and use the
proceeds (which, as in the case of a used car, will be depreciated)
to help pay for the second edition.
I'm tempted to sell my two-month-old copy on eBay before people who
only look at Amazon notice that there's a new edition on the way, and
live with just having the PDF version of the second edition until the
print version comes out.

Kerry
Billegal
2006-05-03 20:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry Buckley
I'm tempted to sell my two-month-old copy on eBay before people who
only look at Amazon notice that there's a new edition on the way, and
live with just having the PDF version of the second edition until the
print version comes out.
The new paper edition won't be out for some time. The first edition was
outdated the day Rails 1.1 was released, if not earlier.

I've already bought version 2 because the changes are so dramatic. It
paid for itself in about 15 minutes. Heck, download the free demo
chapters they've posted and I think most will agree it's a major
rewrite.

I'm glad they didn't wait and milk version 1 until it died of old age.
I hate tech books that are out of date and I have to google the new
info. If we don't pay for the new version, we decrease the incentive to
have new versions come out. I'd prefer that the authors have a complete
incentive to keep us current. I don't have time to pull all this
together.
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
John-Mason P. Shackelford
2006-05-03 13:44:06 UTC
Permalink
I've been surprised by the response to this announcement on both this
list and ruby-talk. As a professional having the best tools available
at my disposal is part of what allows me to deliver great value for my
customer. The information provided in Prag books easily saves me
countless hours of searching the net, reading docs and source, trial
and error, etc. If they didn't, I wouldn't buy them. I have never
bought a Prag book that didn't pay many returns in terms of my own
productivity and effectiveness and quite frankly these books would do
so at many times their price.

In the case of Rails, not only is the Prag book good--it is way out in
front. Other publishers are still working on getting their first ed.
in print (though some have PDFs available) and we've had the first
edition (in some form) over a year. That year was well worth the $50
and I expect the next to be as well.

I suspect that most on the list are of the same mind, but 'discount '
is sort of an involuntary reaction that can be difficult to suppress,
but since I do not want my customers to respond to my work this way, I
think it worth suppressing when I am the customer.
Jim Gay
2006-05-03 14:07:18 UTC
Permalink
I think this is more of a function of what some people have called
'version fatigue'
When Rails changes drastically and quickly, its a good and bad thing.
Likewise with the documentation. Its the same thing that makes people
say "I'm not going to buy a new computer because it will be obsolete
in 2 months"

I don't see this as much of a problem, but if the next version comes
out just as quickly, it wouldn't be surprising at all if even more
people are annoyed. Some people, like myself, are still learning this
stuff, and personally I'm a bit frustrated that I need to get a new
book (or PDF) to stay on top of the latest stuff.

I haven't been complaining and asking for a discount, but it would be
nice (although impossible to track my purchase). Still, I'm glad to
see that the development community is so active that the
documentation is being made so quickly.
Post by John-Mason P. Shackelford
I've been surprised by the response to this announcement on both this
list and ruby-talk. As a professional having the best tools available
at my disposal is part of what allows me to deliver great value for my
customer. The information provided in Prag books easily saves me
countless hours of searching the net, reading docs and source, trial
and error, etc. If they didn't, I wouldn't buy them. I have never
bought a Prag book that didn't pay many returns in terms of my own
productivity and effectiveness and quite frankly these books would do
so at many times their price.
In the case of Rails, not only is the Prag book good--it is way out in
front. Other publishers are still working on getting their first ed.
in print (though some have PDFs available) and we've had the first
edition (in some form) over a year. That year was well worth the $50
and I expect the next to be as well.
I suspect that most on the list are of the same mind, but 'discount '
is sort of an involuntary reaction that can be difficult to suppress,
but since I do not want my customers to respond to my work this way, I
think it worth suppressing when I am the customer.
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Kevin Monceaux
2006-05-03 15:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Gay
I don't see this as much of a problem, but if the next version comes
out just as quickly, it wouldn't be surprising at all if even more
people are annoyed. Some people, like myself, are still learning this
stuff, and personally I'm a bit frustrated that I need to get a new
book (or PDF) to stay on top of the latest stuff.
I'm a bit torn on this issue myself. I bought the paper version of the
first edition and will most likely buy a paper version of the second
edition, weather offered a discount or not. In real life I'm a mainframe
operator. The web development work I do is as a hobby. My hobby budget is
extremely limited. I would love to buy the bundle and get the new PDF now
and the paper version later, but that would further stretch my practically
non-existant budget. If I have to choose between PDF and paper I'll take
paper every time. I like real books. The few PDF only books I've bought in
the past I ended up printing out and sticking in a binder, which increases
my overall cost of PDF books. I have to wonder how many versions of Rails
are going to come out between now and the time the new paper edition of the
book comes out. If the second edition is obsolete before it hits the
bookshelves I might not buy it after all.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-03 20:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Barron
Post by Chris T
That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007 model
comes out. If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount when HD (or
whatever) is the standard. If I buy a 2GHz processor, I do not get a
discount when the 4GHz comes out. If I buy a 15" macbook pro, I do
not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes out for the same
price! Ergo, I should not expect to get a discount when a new edition
of a book comes out. New happens, be grateful there *is* a second
edition, and that Dave is busting his hump to keep the book up to date
with the fast pace of Rails. It's $23, not the $2300 or $23000 we get
shafted on every year on the afore mentioned products.
Not all of these are good analogies.

If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I would
be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from Apple for the
cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software updates to MacOS X.
While I agree that an upgrade for the book might not be workable, at
least the PDF should be easily upgradeable. I bought the Rails book
recently (in fact, I haven't finished reading it all the way through!)
but I might have waited if I had know a new version was nearing publication.

How do I upgrade my PDF copy?
--
A
Scott Barron
2006-05-03 20:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ajai Khattri
Post by Scott Barron
Post by Chris T
That's great news, but I do think there should be a discount for
those who have already bought the first edition in book form.
If I buy a car in 2006, I do not get a discount when the 2007
model comes out. If I buy a regular TV, I do not get a discount
when HD (or whatever) is the standard. If I buy a 2GHz processor,
I do not get a discount when the 4GHz comes out. If I buy a 15"
macbook pro, I do not get a discounted upgrade when the 17" comes
out for the same price! Ergo, I should not expect to get a
discount when a new edition of a book comes out. New happens, be
grateful there *is* a second edition, and that Dave is busting his
hump to keep the book up to date with the fast pace of Rails.
It's $23, not the $2300 or $23000 we get shafted on every year on
the afore mentioned products.
Not all of these are good analogies.
Who cares? Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave
are approximately accurate.
Post by Ajai Khattri
If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from
Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software
updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily
upgradeable. I bought the Rails book recently (in fact, I haven't
finished reading it all the way through!) but I might have waited
if I had know a new version was nearing publication.
And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you
get a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping. The "free"
software updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever
cracked out scheme they use to define those) of osx. My ibook came
with 10.3.x, I had to buy 10.4, no discount.

-Scott
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-03 20:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Barron
Who cares? Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave
are approximately accurate.
Judging from this thread, some of us do...
Post by Scott Barron
And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you get
a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping. The "free" software
updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever cracked out
scheme they use to define those) of osx. My ibook came with 10.3.x, I
had to buy 10.4, no discount.
Again, PDFs are very similar to software.
--
A
Charles M. Gerungan
2006-05-03 22:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ajai Khattri
Post by Scott Barron
And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you
get a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping. The "free"
software updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever
cracked out scheme they use to define those) of osx. My ibook
came with 10.3.x, I had to buy 10.4, no discount.
Again, PDFs are very similar to software.
So you agree with Scott then? No discount on the next iteration of
Mac OS X and the new iteration of Railsaxe?

I do.
--
Regards, Charles.
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-03 22:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ajai Khattri
Post by Scott Barron
And if you bought the first edition pdf on or after april 1st, you
get a FREE upgrade, not even the cost of shipping. The "free"
software updates to macosx do not span "versions" (for whatever
cracked out scheme they use to define those) of osx. My ibook came
with 10.3.x, I had to buy 10.4, no discount.
Again, PDFs are very similar to software.
So you agree with Scott then? No discount on the next iteration of Mac
OS X and the new iteration of Railsaxe?
I will re-iterate what I said earlier: buying a Mac Mini so close to the
release of the next one meant I was entitled to certain upgrades of the
software (e.g. replacement of iLife with the completely new iLife '06)
for the price of shipping a CDROM. There ought to be some sort of
discount upgrade for someone that has just recently bought the PDF
version of the book
--
A
David Heinemeier Hansson
2006-05-03 23:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ajai Khattri
I will re-iterate what I said earlier: buying a Mac Mini so close to the
release of the next one meant I was entitled to certain upgrades of the
software (e.g. replacement of iLife with the completely new iLife '06)
for the price of shipping a CDROM. There ought to be some sort of
discount upgrade for someone that has just recently bought the PDF
version of the book
There is. If you bought the PDF within the past month (since April
1st), you get the new one for free.
--
David Heinemeier Hansson
http://www.loudthinking.com -- Broadcasting Brain
http://www.basecamphq.com -- Online project management
http://www.backpackit.com -- Personal information manager
http://www.rubyonrails.com -- Web-application framework
Jay Levitt
2006-05-05 00:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Barron
Post by Ajai Khattri
Not all of these are good analogies.
Who cares? Analogies are approximations, and each of the ones I gave
are approximately accurate.
OK. Let me try.

Let's say I buy a pound of pickled herring from Schmendrick's Deli on July
1st. Now, I use two cups of that herring in a salad that I make on July
2nd. I eat half of that salad the same day, but freeze the rest.

Meanwhile, on the 7th, I buy some gefilte fish - but not from
Schmendrick's, because his gefilte, at $2.69 a pound, is too mealy.
Morty's, which is only 20 minutes by foot from Schmendrick's, has gefilte
you could die for, and only costs 14 cents more per pound - but he is using
Canadian dollars.

Now, I combine half a cubit of the leftover herring with three lumps of
gefilte fish. I serve it for lunch, and who should show up to lunch but
Schmendrick himself? Only he can't eat the herring - it gives him gas. So
instead he eats some gefilte fish. Do I charge him?

The original herring, of course, is Rails 1.0, and I think the rest is
obvious.

Jay Levitt
Sebastian Friedrich
2006-05-05 01:14:28 UTC
Permalink
[snip: awesome analogy involving gefilte fish, pickled herring and
gastrointestinal issues ]
LOL. it's just amazing how you can always find a fittingly obvious
kick-ass parable in Jewish folklore. I think you have silenced the
critics.

sebastian
Louis Erickson
2006-05-03 20:10:52 UTC
Permalink
I, too, bought it recently. The paper book came less than a week ago, and
it may be that I never remove the shrink wrap.

<snipped analogies of various relevance>
Post by Ajai Khattri
How do I upgrade my PDF copy?
If you bought a first edition PDF from us on or after April 1st,
2006 (order numbers 27140 and above), you qualify for a free upgrade
to the beta book. We'll be sending you instructions by email over
the next few days. (If you have a spam blocker, we suggest
whitelisting pragprog.com and pragmaticprogrammer.com--you'd be
amazed how often our PDF download e-mails get bounced.)
I've already gotten my instructions on how to download the beta book. (I
did have to fish it out of my spam-trap. It rarely gets something wrong,
but this one it did mistakenly catch.)

It does not say if this beta will be upgraded to the full release. If
not, I'll be ordering one. I'll likely order the paper one anyway,
because I like books. (And I like ordering things direct, so the authors
get more of the money.)

New editions come out. This is bad timing for those of us who just bought
them. A bummer, but it happens. Good timing happens, too.
--
Louis Erickson - lerickson-L3lcDe1AUnasTnJN9+***@public.gmane.org - http://www.rdwarf.com/~wwonko/

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
-- Frank Zappa
Dave Thomas
2006-05-04 13:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ajai Khattri
If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from
Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software
updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily upgradeable.
And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.

If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a
complementary upgrade.

If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.

When a new edition comes along, it's a cost item.

Exactly as it is for Apple software.
Gene Kahn
2006-05-05 17:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
Post by Ajai Khattri
If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from
Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software
updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily upgradeable.
And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.
If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a
complementary upgrade.
If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.
When a new edition comes along, it's a cost item.
Exactly as it is for Apple software.
I'm a customer thinking about how a publisher's pricing policy should
be; that's my caveat.

What aspects of the pricing policy will cause prospective customers not
to buy the current product or similar future products?
What aspects of the pricing policy will cause the lost of goodwill even
from those who buy the current products because they are tied to it
(it's a 2nd edition) but may want to remember the current experience?

It's all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
edition. Companies don't want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
AWDwR1?

Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest
in the product.

.02
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Brian Hogan
2006-05-05 18:29:10 UTC
Permalink
I would imagine that if Dave and co. over there wanted to, they could query
their order system to find out how many folks bought revision one and then
bought revision two. They could then determine from that information if this
is a strategy they want to try again when another revision comes out.

I think they will, because it makes good business sense. I'll be purchasing
my copy today because it has things that will make me more money.

The main reason I think that this will work though, is that we trust the
authors. We trust them not to steer us wrong and to guide us. With the
first edition, we learned a lot of good techniques. Now, I could go get a
book from another author that covers Rails 1.1, RJS, and some other really
funky stuff, but I won't because I can get it in a revised edition from
authors I know.

Plus, this book coming out is perfect for me, as I occasionally train
developers. It was getting harder to talk about Migrations as a good
practice when they're not in the "bible".

Just my .02
Post by Gene Kahn
Post by Dave Thomas
Post by Ajai Khattri
If I bought a Mac Mini a month before the new Mac Mini came out, I
would be entitled to get updated software (e.g. iLife '06) from
Apple for the cost of shipping. Furthermore, I get "free" software
updates to MacOS X. While I agree that an upgrade for the book
might not be workable, at least the PDF should be easily upgradeable.
And tis is exactly what we modeled our approach on.
If you bought a PDF within a month of the announcement, we gave you a
complementary upgrade.
If you buy a PDF, you get free revisions for the life of that edition.
When a new edition comes along, it's a cost item.
Exactly as it is for Apple software.
I'm a customer thinking about how a publisher's pricing policy should
be; that's my caveat.
What aspects of the pricing policy will cause prospective customers not
to buy the current product or similar future products?
What aspects of the pricing policy will cause the lost of goodwill even
from those who buy the current products because they are tied to it
(it's a 2nd edition) but may want to remember the current experience?
It's all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
edition. Companies don't want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
AWDwR1?
Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest
in the product.
.02
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Dave Thomas
2006-05-05 18:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Kahn
It's all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
edition. Companies don't want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
AWDwR1?
Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
interest
in the product.
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.

Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.

This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.

I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.


Dave
zer0halo
2006-05-05 19:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Dave, for updating the Agile book. It's really needed as a lot has
improved with Rails since the first edition (which I bought from PragProg
and found very useful). In my opinion, you're perfectly right in saying that
you're doing a favor to the community by updating the book even though you
could ride longer on the sales of the first edition. And the $2 or $5 or
whatever that people might have saved with a discount doesn't really make
any difference to them in the overall scheme of things. But people aren't
always swayed by reason, and what matters is their perception of reality,
not reality itself. I think that a small discount (maybe 10%) would have
been a good marketing idea simply because it caters to people's perception
and makes people feel good whether or not they actually need the discount or
would have bought it anyway. In any case, I'm sure the second edition will
sell just fine, and those who complain will get over it and upgrade, so no
worries :-).
Post by Dave Thomas
Post by Gene Kahn
It's all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
edition. Companies don't want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
AWDwR1?
Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest
in the product.
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Dave
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
--
"Impossible is nothing."
pat eyler
2006-05-05 19:01:48 UTC
Permalink
I talk a lot about building the Ruby community, and try to put in the
effort to back up my words, but in this case, I think I've fallen down
on the job.
Post by Dave Thomas
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
It certainly does. It produces better books, builds the sense of community
and gets the book into the hands of users faster.
Post by Dave Thomas
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
I think this was a tremendous move on your part. Not only did you insulate
people from buying a soon to be obsoleted book for a considerable period
of time (I can't imagine another publisher doing that), but you are again
getting needed information into the community earlier than otherwise possible.
I've been shocked that you guys have taken such a beating over this.
Post by Dave Thomas
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Though I don't do much (if anything) with Rails, I'm really excited to see
on the horizon what promises to be another great book for the Ruby and Rails
community.

Thanks!
Post by Dave Thomas
Dave
--
-pate
-------------------------
http://on-ruby.blogspot.com
Pat Maddox
2006-05-05 20:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
Post by Gene Kahn
It's all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
edition. Companies don't want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
AWDwR1?
Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest
in the product.
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Dave
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
I'm one of the people to initially say it'd be nice to get some kind
of discount.

I also ordered the combo pack yesterday :)

Bottom line, you guys consistently produce the highest quality books
of any publisher I've encountered. Your beta program is spectacular -
we want/need this info NOW, and even though you're probably taking a
bit of a loss by releasing the book, you're willing to give it to us
now.

You've provided a tremendous service to the Ruby and Rails community.
Whatever money you might lose by releasing this beta book, I'm sure
you'll gain plenty more because customers will be willing to return to
you. As I mentioned, I own 5 prag books myself.

Pat
Giles Bowkett
2006-05-05 20:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Honestly Dave, I love the Prag. Bookshelf, I'm gradually collecting
the whole damn thing, and for what it's worth, I think the community's
response to your news is utterly appalling.

I think you underestimated the value of what you had to sell,
underpriced it, and are now seeing it undervalued in the marketplace.

I'd say just publish v2 as an update-only edition, and skip discounts entirely.

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Stephen Bannasch
2006-05-05 20:27:37 UTC
Permalink
I think the beta book program is just fantastic and the time I save
by getting access to your work is worth SO much more than the cost of
what you are selling that the $50 I spent on the combopack is
practically irrelevant.

This list has many many people and what normally generates the will
to post is a scratch -- a problem of some sorts. You can't make
simple generalizations from he distributions of opinion in a comment
thread. That doesn't mean that you should ignore the comments either
however.

Ultimately the sales you get will help inform your business
decisions. If there are enough people like me your sales will prove
you made the right decisions.

I don't expect this to be true but if Rails changes and expands as
much in the next year as it has in the last year I'll happily buy
more of your work next year.
--
- Stephen Bannasch
Concord Consortium, http://www.concord.org
Kerry Buckley
2006-05-05 21:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We
knew this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good
member of the community and go with the beta program despite the
financial costs.
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and
I'm distressed that something I thought was good for us all is
generating so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
And I'm sure a lot of us are. I'm almost certainly going to buy the
beta of the second edition, even though I haven't finished reading
the original yet (I'm new to rails, and so far it's just for fun,
until I can find an excuse to start sneaking it in at work instead of
doing everything in Java). Whatever you do, there'll always be some
people who aren't happy.

Keep up the good work -- from where I'm looking, the Pragmatic
bookshelf is on track to become the next O'Reilly.

Kerry
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-07 00:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry Buckley
And I'm sure a lot of us are. I'm almost certainly going to buy the
beta of the second edition, even though I haven't finished reading the
original yet
Im in the same boat - Im still working my way through the first
edition... ;-(
Post by Kerry Buckley
Keep up the good work -- from where I'm looking, the Pragmatic
bookshelf is on track to become the next O'Reilly.
Ah, but O'Reilly have a nice upgrade policy:
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
--
A
Justin Forder
2006-05-07 01:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ajai Khattri
Post by Kerry Buckley
Keep up the good work -- from where I'm looking, the Pragmatic
bookshelf is on track to become the next O'Reilly.
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
That looks exactly right... I didn't know, and there are quite a few
O'Reilly books I've bought more than one edtion of (I still have the
first edition of Java in a Nutshell!).

thanks

Justin
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-07 20:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justin Forder
That looks exactly right... I didn't know, and there are quite a few
O'Reilly books I've bought more than one edtion of (I still have the
first edition of Java in a Nutshell!).
I probably have more O'Reilly books (incl. multiple editions of several)
than anyone here :-)
--
A
Kerry Buckley
2006-05-07 08:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ajai Khattri
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
...as long as you live in the US.

Kerry
Kevin Monceaux
2006-05-07 16:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ajai Khattri
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
I always did like O'Reilly. Oddly this is the first I've heard of their
upgrade policy. Is the upgrade policy only good for true O'Reilly books or
for any books purchased from O'Reilly? I searched for Rails books on the
O'Reilly site and it appears that AWDR can be purchased from O'Reilly. The
book qualifies for free shipping and they even have a buy two books, get one
free offer. I will definitely keep O'Reilly in mind when expanding my Rails
library.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-07 20:47:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Monceaux
I always did like O'Reilly. Oddly this is the first I've heard of their
upgrade policy. Is the upgrade policy only good for true O'Reilly books or
for any books purchased from O'Reilly?
Dont know.
Post by Kevin Monceaux
I searched for Rails books on the
O'Reilly site and it appears that AWDR can be purchased from O'Reilly.
There is no official O'Reilly Rails book though one is slated for a July
release (along with a Ruby book too).
Post by Kevin Monceaux
The
book qualifies for free shipping and they even have a buy two books, get one
free offer. I will definitely keep O'Reilly in mind when expanding my Rails
library.
Its no wonder they are popular.
--
A
Pat Lynch
2006-05-08 01:59:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
I'm a big O'Reilly fan -- but I usually buy their books from amazon -
usually a bit cheaper and its easier for me...

What is the O'Reilly upgrade policy?

Cheers,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: rails-bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:rails-bounces-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Monceaux
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 12:25 PM
To: rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development
withRails
Post by Ajai Khattri
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
I always did like O'Reilly. Oddly this is the first I've heard of their
upgrade policy. Is the upgrade policy only good for true O'Reilly books
or
for any books purchased from O'Reilly? I searched for Rails books on
the
O'Reilly site and it appears that AWDR can be purchased from O'Reilly.
The
book qualifies for free shipping and they even have a buy two books, get
one
free offer. I will definitely keep O'Reilly in mind when expanding my
Rails
library.


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-08 01:48:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Lynch
Hi,
I'm a big O'Reilly fan -- but I usually buy their books from amazon -
usually a bit cheaper and its easier for me...
What is the O'Reilly upgrade policy?
Its documented on the URL in that posting.



--
Giles Bowkett
2006-05-08 04:48:56 UTC
Permalink
80 posts according to Gmail.

This isn't actually the worst waste of time I've seen in my life. It
isn't even the worst waste of time I've seen in my inbox this year.
This one music-related mailing list I used to be on actually got to
106 posts about whether or not you could lose weight by drinking your
own pee.

But honestly, 80 posts?

Yeesh!

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org
Codeblogger
2006-05-08 06:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Ok, now save us some time and tell us whether or wether not we lose weight
by purchaising AWDR2.
SB
2006-05-08 10:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, but we get rails for free right?

I'll be honest, I'm only getting the hang of rails so there's no
question that I need the Second edition. This will be my 4th one
including David Black's "Ruby for Rails". But I did buy the Rails
Recipes PDF + hard cover along with the ruby book (at full price since
overseas shipping kills any discount).

I'll probably buy the PDF + hard copy of Rails 2nd edition as well but
it does hurt my pockets badly being a student abroad. The PDF feels a
bit expensive no matter how you cut it but the immediacy of info makes
it necessary.

This second edition is a godsend because the first edition is just too
out of date. I appreciate the effort made by the authors to keep the
literature current in almost real time--rewriting a book must feel
like beating a dead horse for authors that have been there and done
that.

This book will be what introduces rails to the next batch of rails
developers. The contribution of this will no doubt influence rails
development in the immediate future.

It's also coming hot on the heels of O'Reilly's first release on rails
too. That speaks for itself. Hopefully, by the time the third
edition comes out, I'll be well-versed in the source not to need it or
earn this money back many times over.


Just do me a favor and use this quote from Bill Gates in the second
edition because it is so appropriate and hilarious for the irony:

"Software is providing power, but software has got to provide simplicity."

Bill Gates, 2006 International Consumer Electronics Show
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
Post by Codeblogger
Ok, now save us some time and tell us whether or wether not we lose weight
by purchaising AWDR2.
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Bakki Kudva
2006-05-08 16:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Unfortunately that gives you only 30% off list and discount bookstores
like bookpool.com give you routinely 33% - 50% off list and you don't
pay sales tax either.

-bakki
Post by Ajai Khattri
http://www.oreilly.com/order/upgrade.html
Greg Donald
2006-05-05 21:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
I'm excited for the book. It's a great thing to be smart enough to
write books. You're the man, etc.. :)

But.. being a 1st edition buyer of both the print and the PDF
versions, the 2nd edition, no matter how much new content has been
added, is still very much an 'upgrade' from my point of view as a
consumer. I'm guessing you did not create all the content for the 2nd
edition from scratch. At least a portion of the 1st edition was
reused, was it not? Why would I want to pay for the same thing again?
I apologize in advance if the book _is_ all 100% new content.
Personally I would go with a new/different name if that is the case.

It wouldn't be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective editions
were years apart. If I had know a 2nd edition were to be printed I
probably would have waited. I bought early and that's my own fault,
not yours. But going forward it would be doubly bad if I let this
happen to my wallet again. What if there's a 3rd edition coming for
Rails 1.2 or 1.3? Do I wait or do I spend now for a book that could
easily be outdated (again) this time next year?

A 2nd edition discount for 1st edition buyers would easily sway my
opinion to go ahead with the purchase now, but since none is being
offered to my particular purchase date, I cannot. It's likely I will
purchase the book at some point but will wait for a used version or
other such discounted sale.


--
Greg Donald
Zend Certified Engineer
MySQL Core Certification
http://destiney.com/
Kerry Buckley
2006-05-05 21:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Donald
It wouldn't be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective editions
were years apart.
But then they'd be so far out of date as to be almost useless. I've
been burnt before by buying a book that hadn't been updated for the
version of the relevant technology that was current when I bought it
(and had been for some time), and because there had been a major API
change it was a total waste of money. I'd much rather at least have
the option of buying an up-to-date book more frequently (and the beta
PDF programme is even better).

If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
be useful?

Kerry
Adam Denenberg
2006-05-05 21:58:41 UTC
Permalink
To me this is a lose lose situation from the arguments above. If no second
edition had come out everyone would be yelling "Agile Book is so out of date
with respect to rails 1.1.2 !!". Now that Dave has spent time to get it up
to date with the fast pace changes of Rails, people are complaining "I just
bought rev 1!!".

As said above we shoud be happy that Dave and the gang have bothered to put
in the effort to give us all an up to date reference to work with. The only
reason the rev came so soon is b/c rails is moving so quickly right now.
The way I look at it is if you dont want the updated version you dont have
to buy it, but dont complain about "lack of updated information" with all
the new rails features. Some books never release a second edition and end
up becoming almost worthless.

Cheers for the hard work Dave, I bought the first book and it jumpstarted my
rails projects, I plan on buying the second edition.

adam
Post by Kerry Buckley
Post by Greg Donald
It wouldn't be nearly as big a deal to me if the respective editions
were years apart.
But then they'd be so far out of date as to be almost useless. I've
been burnt before by buying a book that hadn't been updated for the
version of the relevant technology that was current when I bought it
(and had been for some time), and because there had been a major API
change it was a total waste of money. I'd much rather at least have
the option of buying an up-to-date book more frequently (and the beta
PDF programme is even better).
If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
be useful?
Kerry
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Greg Donald
2006-05-05 22:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerry Buckley
If you want to leave it a couple of years, wait for the third or
fourth edition, but by then how much of your current book will still
be useful?
It is not anyone's fault Rails is evolving so quickly, neither the
author or the readers. Still, I cannot not pay full price for
'updated' content.

CDs, manuals, and packaging all cost money to make, just like books
cost money to print. Meanwhile software companies sell discounted
upgrades all the time.


--
Greg Donald
Zend Certified Engineer
MySQL Core Certification
http://destiney.com/
Tom Mornini
2006-05-06 00:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Donald
It is not anyone's fault Rails is evolving so quickly, neither the
author or the readers. Still, I cannot not pay full price for
'updated' content.
I assume the double negative is a typo. If so, WHY can't you pay full
price for updated content? I'm totally clear that you may choose not
to, but saying that you 'cannot' is likely overstated.
Post by Greg Donald
CDs, manuals, and packaging all cost money to make, just like books
cost money to print. Meanwhile software companies sell discounted
upgrades all the time.
It is none of your business what the production costs are. The only
question you need to ask yourself is whether or not the information
is worth the price you can buy it for.

If you want it, buy it. If you don't want it, don't buy it.
--
-- Tom Mornini
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
2006-05-05 22:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We
knew this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good
member of the community and go with the beta program despite the
financial costs.
Hey, I'm excited about it. I'll get a 2nd edition too. :)
--
_Deirdre http://deirdre.net
Justin Forder
2006-05-06 00:53:19 UTC
Permalink
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community, and
that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition considerably by
preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're doing the right
thing by you all.
The first edition hasn't done badly, and the only thing that *should* be
hurting its sales is the rate of change in Rails itself. AWDR was there
on the shelf at Waterstones in Kingston (Surrey) today, and I imagine
they'll keep selling it until there's a new paper edition.

Also, many sales of Rails Recipes will be due to the first edition of
AWDR becoming out of date. That's certainly why I bought the Rails
Recipes beta.
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on an
upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing us
money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and with
returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew this
going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of the
community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
I can't find the post right now, but you have mentioned the possibility
of a discount for upgraders in the past (without committing to it). That
may have set expectations.

Maybe it's just me, but I interpret "cost" as something you have to pay,
as opposed to "reduction in profit". I appreciate that writing the
second edition is a cost, but you won't be alone in this market for long...

I know that you believe in Rails and want to contribute to its success
by providing (and continuing to provide) the definitive book on the
subject. I'd prefer not to think about what you are doing in cashflow
terms - but if I do, I see that there are tricky decisions regarding
when to announce and release a new edition, in order to hold on to
market share.
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating so
much apparent heartache.
It is good. It was also good that the first edition of Pickaxe was free
to download. It's your book, and your choice.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I thought
folks would actually be excited.
I *am* excited, and I have bought the second edition PDF (to add to my
first edition PDF, plus two paper copies - I lost one, bought another,
then found the first again), paper copies of both Pickaxe editions, PDF
of the second edition of Pickaxe, Rails Recipes PDF, Enterprise
Integration with Ruby PDF, Pragmatic Ajax PDF, paper copies of the
Pragmatic Starter Kit books, and the Pragmatic Programmer.

I can afford this, but others (e.g. students and developers in poorer
countries) may find it difficult. That's not your problem - Rails should
have good, free, current tutorial and reference documentation.

(Remember when the JBoss team started charging for documentation?)

take care, and keep up the excellent work

Justin
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
2006-05-08 00:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.
IMHO you are doing the right thing by us all. Still, Pragmatic
Programmers should *not* have to apologize for being a for-profit
organization!
Post by Dave Thomas
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I don't know who is getting heartaches or indigestion from this. I for
one am glad AWDR II is available -- I bought the PDF-only beta as soon
as I found it had been released.
Post by Dave Thomas
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
I honestly don't think anyone on this list should be complaining about
anything associated with Pragmatic Programmers. You made a business
decision. The last time I looked that's the way our economy operates.
--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

http://linuxcapacityplanning.com
Pat Maddox
2006-05-08 01:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
Post by Dave Thomas
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
I honestly don't think anyone on this list should be complaining about
anything associated with Pragmatic Programmers. You made a business
decision. The last time I looked that's the way our economy operates.
Not to drag this off topic, but another element of our economy is
consumer opinion. If consumers don't like the business decision, they
can speak out. People might say, "Well if you don't want it then just
don't buy it," but that's only part of the equation. We can choose to
vote with our wallets as well as explain why we're doing so.

I ended up buying the combo back. Still, everyone has the right to
criticize the decision if they want to.

Pat
David Mitchell
2006-05-08 01:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Guys,

Can we please lay this thread to rest?

Summary of responses so far:
- it costs too much
- no it doesn't

It's PAINFULLY clear there's dissent on this, and it's even more
painfully clear that no-one's about to change their mind if they've
already made a decision about whether to buy this book or not.

Anyone who hasn't yet made the decision now has ample info on which to
base their decision. The PragProg guys also have ample input to let
them decide whether their pricing model is appropriate or not, and
will get more when they look at the sales figures for the 2 versions
going forward.

What exactly do any of us stand to gain by adding our 2c worth at this point?

Regards

Dave M.
Post by Pat Maddox
Post by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
Post by Dave Thomas
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
I honestly don't think anyone on this list should be complaining about
anything associated with Pragmatic Programmers. You made a business
decision. The last time I looked that's the way our economy operates.
Not to drag this off topic, but another element of our economy is
consumer opinion. If consumers don't like the business decision, they
can speak out. People might say, "Well if you don't want it then just
don't buy it," but that's only part of the equation. We can choose to
vote with our wallets as well as explain why we're doing so.
I ended up buying the combo back. Still, everyone has the right to
criticize the decision if they want to.
Pat
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-08 01:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Mitchell
- it costs too much
- no it doesn't
That's a matter of personal opinion - you can't speak for everyone in
the whole community.

So dont.


--
Mick Sharpe
2006-05-08 01:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
Dave,

I have the first edition of AWDR - it is a fantastic book and my copy is
already becoming very well thumbed indeed. I have also bought into the
PDF beta programme, which is a brilliant idea and very worthwhile, and I
shall be grabbing a printed copy of the 2nd edition as soon as it hits
the shelves. I would have taken advantage of the combo offer, but
shipping charges make it more econonomical for me to buy AWDR II in the
UK.

Remember that some people will moan no matter what you do for them or
how hard you try - like any critics they are best ignored. Keep up the
good work, and my heartfelt thanks both to you and DHH.

Mick Sharpe
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Mick Sharpe
2006-05-08 01:23:45 UTC
Permalink
P.S. How do you spell econonomical? :o
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Kevin Monceaux
2006-05-08 17:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mick Sharpe
P.S. How do you spell econonomical? :o
Like many words I spell economical, if that was the word you were trying
for, with the help of:

http://www.dictionary.com


Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
Gene Kahn
2006-05-08 06:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Angst is good. It shows commitment. What's bad is unjustified sense of
entitlement. Let's face it, no one is entitled to anything here. The
offer to late buyers of AWDwR1 of free PDF copy ofADWwR2 is an act of
publisher goodwill. Perhaps motivated by the desire to avert a
potentially huge backlash if the late buyers were not to be given any
amelioration at all. But no matter the motivation.

<< the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
Post by Dave Thomas
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock.
A promise to book copy buyers of free PDF copy of the beta second
edition at pre-announcement might have helped stave off the sudden
drying up of sales. This offer of course would have an effect on future
cash from the PDF version, but at least the expensive current hard copy
stock will move, and probably move faster. Maybe not. RoR enthusiasts
are a savvy breed; they know that six months into the release of the
book copy, it's just out of it and perhaps would not even run with the
latest RoR and the pre-announcement wouldn't have made much difference
anyway (I'm guessing here).

The problem here, as I see it, is the fast pace of change in RoR itself,
exacerbated by what I think is a premature book copy edition. Had there
been no book copy, the second PDF edition could come out within six
months, and compensations would be easy to settle, and no returns to
deal with. While RoR is still vigorously undergoing changes, a plain
vanilla text hard copy documentation is good enough (for me). After all,
it's a Dave Thomas book, and whether it is published by O'Reilly or
written on napkins, it is a Dave Thomas book.

.02
Post by Dave Thomas
Post by Gene Kahn
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the interest
in the product.
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Dave
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Sean Lynch
2006-05-03 14:57:23 UTC
Permalink
The 1.0 edition had a coupon code for money off a copy of the pick axe book.
Many of the other pragmatic books have similar discounts in them.

Their website also has many discounts.

And remember that those auto dealers offer cash back and incentives on
the not so hot models. When the Mazda miata and the new beetle first
came out dealers were charging huge mark ups, and customers were
paying.

During the height of the SUV craze, a new Ford Explorer cost Ford, on
average, a little over $18,000 US. They average sales price was a
little over $36,000 US. Some discount huh?

Pragmatic books are not too expensive, don't begrudge them a little
profit. I don't think they are gouging when you look at the market.

They are a great value.
Carl Fyffe
2006-05-03 15:08:36 UTC
Permalink
I walked into my grocery store yesterday and picked up some milk. I
got the strangest look from the cashier when I asked him if I could
get a discount on the milk since I bought some last week.

Yes, grocery stores are starting to track purchases of shoppers to
give them discounts on items, but you must realize that they rarely
lose money on those deals and that they are purely to incentivize you
to buy more. The book is a product... just like the milk. If you don't
like the price buy someone else's book. I doubt it will "taste" as
good as this one.
Post by Sean Lynch
The 1.0 edition had a coupon code for money off a copy of the pick axe book.
Many of the other pragmatic books have similar discounts in them.
Their website also has many discounts.
And remember that those auto dealers offer cash back and incentives on
the not so hot models. When the Mazda miata and the new beetle first
came out dealers were charging huge mark ups, and customers were
paying.
During the height of the SUV craze, a new Ford Explorer cost Ford, on
average, a little over $18,000 US. They average sales price was a
little over $36,000 US. Some discount huh?
Pragmatic books are not too expensive, don't begrudge them a little
profit. I don't think they are gouging when you look at the market.
They are a great value.
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Stephen Bartholomew
2006-05-03 15:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Wow - there are some really weird anologies appearing in the thread :0)

At the end of the day, if the second edition contains a lot of extra
that you feel will be useful, you would be happy to buy the book again -
if not - why would you bother?

I only bought the first edition about 3 weeks ago but it's already
helped me out more than any other programming book i've read. If the
2nd edition has a lot of useful stuff in it, i'll probably get it.

However, i'm looking more forward to getting into Rails Recipes (when
the delivery time on amazon comes down a bit!) and the pickaxe.

Steve
Post by Carl Fyffe
I walked into my grocery store yesterday and picked up some milk. I
got the strangest look from the cashier when I asked him if I could
get a discount on the milk since I bought some last week.
Yes, grocery stores are starting to track purchases of shoppers to
give them discounts on items, but you must realize that they rarely
lose money on those deals and that they are purely to incentivize you
to buy more. The book is a product... just like the milk. If you don't
like the price buy someone else's book. I doubt it will "taste" as
good as this one.
Post by Sean Lynch
The 1.0 edition had a coupon code for money off a copy of the pick axe book.
Many of the other pragmatic books have similar discounts in them.
Their website also has many discounts.
And remember that those auto dealers offer cash back and incentives on
the not so hot models. When the Mazda miata and the new beetle first
came out dealers were charging huge mark ups, and customers were
paying.
During the height of the SUV craze, a new Ford Explorer cost Ford, on
average, a little over $18,000 US. They average sales price was a
little over $36,000 US. Some discount huh?
Pragmatic books are not too expensive, don't begrudge them a little
profit. I don't think they are gouging when you look at the market.
They are a great value.
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Nathan Leach
2006-05-03 15:41:08 UTC
Permalink
I understand the sentiment of wanting discounts for purchasing the new version. I got the 1st edition PDF back in Dec. '05, which is outside their window for free updates (sigh). However, I went online and got PDFs of the new version of "Agile Web Development with Rails", "Enterprise Integration with Ruby", the latest version of "Programing with Ruby", and "My Job Went to India" for about $75. Not bad, when to compared to college textbooks, which in my experience can run well over $100 and offer dubious value.

Nathan
Kenneth Lee
2006-05-03 15:56:30 UTC
Permalink
I'll definitely pick up a new copy. Especially since I haven't seen
my Agile book since I loaned it out :)
Ken Kousen
2006-05-05 18:50:20 UTC
Permalink
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/***@public.gmane.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Larry White
2006-05-05 18:55:45 UTC
Permalink
I'm one of the people who said it would be nice to get a discount for recent
purchasers (I bought the hardcopy/pdf combo six months ago) .

I'd like to add that I think the book is fantastic (as is Rails Recipes,
btw) and I'd have been lost without it. So - in the spirit of keeping
things in perspective - all I can say is 'keep up the good work'.

- larry
Dude, the second edition beta is exactly what I needed, and I already have
a (signed) copy of the first edition. I'm thrilled you did this. I really
was worried that I wouldn't have a decent reference for Rails that discussed
migrations, RJS, and the rest.
I can't speak for anyone else, but you've helped me enormously. Thank you
for all your hard work.
Ken Kousen
--
Kenneth A. Kousen, Ph.D.
President
Kousen IT, Inc.
http://www.kousenit.com
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development
with Rails
Date: Fri, May 05, 2006 2:45 pm
Post by Gene Kahn
It's all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1 shortly
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will learn a
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of the next
edition. Companies don't want that cash flow gap. Remember the Osborne
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought AWDwR1 one
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year life of
AWDwR1?
Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify). Beta buyers
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if incomplete, if
happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even when the
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
interest
in the product.
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the financial costs.
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Dave
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Chris T
2006-05-05 19:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry White
I'm one of the people who said it would be nice to get a discount for
recent purchasers (I bought the hardcopy/pdf combo six months ago) .
Ditto
Post by Larry White
I'd like to add that I think the book is fantastic (as is Rails
Recipes, btw) and I'd have been lost without it. So - in the spirit
of keeping things in perspective - all I can say is 'keep up the good
work'.
Ditto
Post by Larry White
- larry
Dude, the second edition beta is exactly what I needed, and I
already have a (signed) copy of the first edition. I'm thrilled
you did this. I really was worried that I wouldn't have a decent
reference for Rails that discussed migrations, RJS, and the rest.
I can't speak for anyone else, but you've helped me enormously.
Thank you for all your hard work.
Ken Kousen
--
Kenneth A. Kousen, Ph.D.
President
Kousen IT, Inc.
http://www.kousenit.com <http://www.kousenit.com/>
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Rails] Re: [ADV] Second Edition of Agile Web Development
with Rails
Date: Fri, May 05, 2006 2:45 pm
Post by Gene Kahn
It's all a matter of compensation. If you had bought AWDwR1
shortly
Post by Gene Kahn
before the release of AWDwR2, and not compensated, you will
learn a
Post by Gene Kahn
lesson and not buy a product shortly before the release of
the next
Post by Gene Kahn
edition. Companies don't want that cash flow gap. Remember
the Osborne
Post by Gene Kahn
Effect? So AWDwR2 PDF is free to those customers who bought
AWDwR1 one
Post by Gene Kahn
month before AWDwR2. But is one month enough for the one year
life of
Post by Gene Kahn
AWDwR1?
Should beta edition buyers be rewarded, particularly if they
participated in improving the product (hard to quantify).
Beta buyers
Post by Gene Kahn
are an asset -- they believe in the product even if
incomplete, if
Post by Gene Kahn
happy
they are effective word-of-mouthers, they provide cash even
when the
Post by Gene Kahn
product is unfinished, they provide info to the company of the
interest
in the product.
I'd like to think that the beta program adds value to the community,
and that even though it hurts our sales of the first edition
considerably by preannouncing the second edition 5 months out, we're
doing the right thing by you all.
Please understand this point: with all this talk about saving $5 on
an upgrade, the mere act of announcing this book is already costing
us money in sales that we would have made on first edition book and
with returns from bookstores of existing first edition stock. We knew
this going in: we honestly wanted to continue to be a good member of
the community and go with the beta program despite the
financial costs.
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Dave
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Chris Schumann
2006-05-05 21:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Thomas
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Dave
Here's one data point from a serious nuby. I bought v1 in dead tree
format at a local bookstore. I'm a little cheesed that v2 is out and I
have to pay full price... but just a little.

It would indeed be great if there were something akin to an
encyclopedia's yearbook: AWDWR 4/06 update, but with all that's new,
that would probably cost as much to make as v2. (and I'm sure the
publisher wouldn't like to support both products!)

I don't make my living with Rails, and it may never happen, so it's not
a no-brainer to buy v2 for me. But, I do have v1, and I have access to
the very excellent online docs, and the support of the community.

In making a couple of Rails apps, if I want to get into the depths of
testing, or RJS, or whatever, I'll buy v2. v1 was certainly well written
and readable. (Excellent editor!)

Otherwise, I'll wait for the sweeping changes that Ruby 2.0 brings to
Rails and buy THAT version of your book.

I don't see any better way to handle things than the way you did. As
long as you don't expect everyone to buy every version, you're fine.

Take care,
Chris
Conrad Taylor
2006-05-05 22:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Hey Dave and Co., I wouldn't change what you have done one bit. The books
that you sell support your effort to publishing it. It seems that some
people simply don't understand that it takes time and a great deal of effort
to publish a book. Next, no one is forcing you, the consumer, to buy this
book or any other revision of this or any other book. Again, you have the
option of seraching the internet for the information contained in this book
and posting on various newsgroups. Chris, you mentioned something about
"AWDWR 4/06 update".
It sounds like a good idea but are you willing to lead that effort? Please
understand that I'm not trying to pick on anyone on the mailing list. OK?
Open-source is about contributing towards the project (i.e. rails
development) instead of being a backseat driver. One way of contributing is
purchasing some form of the book or providing feedback for it. Please don't
moan and groan when X is covered in the book or why there's not enough
documentation for topic X. You have an execellent opportunity now to voice
your opinion for the next release of a must have RoR developer's book.
Thus, you shouldn't waste your time nickle and diming the fact that a new
revision of a book will be realeasing in September 2006.

Thanks for listening,

-Conrad
Post by Chris Schumann
Post by Dave Thomas
This thread has me worried that perhaps I was naive in this, and I'm
distressed that something I thought was good for us all is generating
so much apparent heartache.
I'm genuinely sorry that I seem to have caused so much angst---I
thought folks would actually be excited.
Dave
Here's one data point from a serious nuby. I bought v1 in dead tree
format at a local bookstore. I'm a little cheesed that v2 is out and I
have to pay full price... but just a little.
It would indeed be great if there were something akin to an
encyclopedia's yearbook: AWDWR 4/06 update, but with all that's new,
that would probably cost as much to make as v2. (and I'm sure the
publisher wouldn't like to support both products!)
I don't make my living with Rails, and it may never happen, so it's not
a no-brainer to buy v2 for me. But, I do have v1, and I have access to
the very excellent online docs, and the support of the community.
In making a couple of Rails apps, if I want to get into the depths of
testing, or RJS, or whatever, I'll buy v2. v1 was certainly well written
and readable. (Excellent editor!)
Otherwise, I'll wait for the sweeping changes that Ruby 2.0 brings to
Rails and buy THAT version of your book.
I don't see any better way to handle things than the way you did. As
long as you don't expect everyone to buy every version, you're fine.
Take care,
Chris
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Jim Zajkowski
2006-05-06 16:18:16 UTC
Permalink
It seems that some people simply don't understand that it takes time and
a great deal of effort to publish a book.
This comes up in a number of ways on this list -- from the cost of
different hosting companies to how "overpriced" Macs are.

Everyone applies their own value-to-cost computation; if the value the
item brings is more than the cost, those people will buy it.

--Jim
Kian
2006-05-05 22:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Schumann
Here's one data point from a serious nuby. I bought v1 in dead tree
format at a local bookstore. I'm a little cheesed that v2 is out and I
have to pay full price... but just a little.
It would indeed be great if there were something akin to an
encyclopedia's yearbook: AWDWR 4/06 update, but with all that's new,
that would probably cost as much to make as v2. (and I'm sure the
publisher wouldn't like to support both products!)
I don't make my living with Rails, and it may never happen, so it's not
a no-brainer to buy v2 for me. But, I do have v1, and I have access to
the very excellent online docs, and the support of the community.
In making a couple of Rails apps, if I want to get into the depths of
testing, or RJS, or whatever, I'll buy v2. v1 was certainly well written
and readable. (Excellent editor!)
Otherwise, I'll wait for the sweeping changes that Ruby 2.0 brings to
Rails and buy THAT version of your book.
I don't see any better way to handle things than the way you did. As
long as you don't expect everyone to buy every version, you're fine.
Take care,
Chris
<rant note='you have been warned'>

I'm also a bit ticked that a completely new edition is coming out so
quickly after the previous one and no discount is offered. I didn't
really expect Pragmatic to offer a discount, but it would have been nice.

How about if I pay $23 * (# pages changed in new edition / 526)
(526 = # pages in 1st edition)? Why should I pay for a book that is likely
to have much of the same content I already paid for?

The real problem is not with this book. We're only upset because
this book is the best documentation available on Rails. This would not
be an issue if we had some decent documentation on the Rails website. It's
got problems, and honestly hasn't really improved much over the past year
except for the manuals):
* Very little documentation on files not in the API, e.g., script/*, configuration;
* The wiki is an unorganized disaster, with tons of spam recently;
* Way too many undocumented methods in the API; and
* Mostly reference documentation, not much in the way of tutorials
(beyond the really introductory ones) or under-the-hood explanations of
what's really going on.

I try to clean up the wiki as I use it, but to little impact. Why don't we
have a good API/wiki combo, where people can annotate the API documentation
online?

So we're faced with a dilemma:
1. shell out $23 for the new book
2. suffer through with the online doc
3. sift through the codebase to figure out how things work/don't work, and
then submit a documentation patch and wait forever for it to get into
the doc (yeah, right)

</rant>
Carl Fyffe
2006-05-05 22:38:34 UTC
Permalink
3. sift through the codebase to figure out how things work/don't work, and
then submit a documentation patch and wait forever for it to get into
the doc (yeah, right)

While you are sifting, I will be reading the answer in my book, saving
myself time. I bet I save more than $23 worth of my time. How much
will your sifting cost you?
Post by Kian
Post by Chris Schumann
Here's one data point from a serious nuby. I bought v1 in dead tree
format at a local bookstore. I'm a little cheesed that v2 is out and I
have to pay full price... but just a little.
It would indeed be great if there were something akin to an
encyclopedia's yearbook: AWDWR 4/06 update, but with all that's new,
that would probably cost as much to make as v2. (and I'm sure the
publisher wouldn't like to support both products!)
I don't make my living with Rails, and it may never happen, so it's not
a no-brainer to buy v2 for me. But, I do have v1, and I have access to
the very excellent online docs, and the support of the community.
In making a couple of Rails apps, if I want to get into the depths of
testing, or RJS, or whatever, I'll buy v2. v1 was certainly well written
and readable. (Excellent editor!)
Otherwise, I'll wait for the sweeping changes that Ruby 2.0 brings to
Rails and buy THAT version of your book.
I don't see any better way to handle things than the way you did. As
long as you don't expect everyone to buy every version, you're fine.
Take care,
Chris
<rant note='you have been warned'>
I'm also a bit ticked that a completely new edition is coming out so
quickly after the previous one and no discount is offered. I didn't
really expect Pragmatic to offer a discount, but it would have been nice.
How about if I pay $23 * (# pages changed in new edition / 526)
(526 = # pages in 1st edition)? Why should I pay for a book that is likely
to have much of the same content I already paid for?
The real problem is not with this book. We're only upset because
this book is the best documentation available on Rails. This would not
be an issue if we had some decent documentation on the Rails website. It's
got problems, and honestly hasn't really improved much over the past year
* Very little documentation on files not in the API, e.g., script/*, configuration;
* The wiki is an unorganized disaster, with tons of spam recently;
* Way too many undocumented methods in the API; and
* Mostly reference documentation, not much in the way of tutorials
(beyond the really introductory ones) or under-the-hood explanations of
what's really going on.
I try to clean up the wiki as I use it, but to little impact. Why don't we
have a good API/wiki combo, where people can annotate the API documentation
online?
1. shell out $23 for the new book
2. suffer through with the online doc
3. sift through the codebase to figure out how things work/don't work, and
then submit a documentation patch and wait forever for it to get into
the doc (yeah, right)
</rant>
_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Kian
2006-05-05 22:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kian
3. sift through the codebase to figure out how things work/don't work, and
then submit a documentation patch and wait forever for it to get into
the doc (yeah, right)
While you are sifting, I will be reading the answer in my book, saving
myself time. I bet I save more than $23 worth of my time. How much
will your sifting cost you?
FYI: '(yeah, right)' == sarcasm indicator

I'll be shelling out the $23, and then I'll be even more ticked b/c DHH, DT, &
crew are making money off of me b/c of the lousy doc. OTH, I'm making money b/c
of Rails (and more than $23)...

I guess it beats having to buy and use Visual Studio or something.
Michael Koziarski
2006-05-05 23:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kian
FYI: '(yeah, right)' == sarcasm indicator
I'll be shelling out the $23, and then I'll be even more ticked b/c DHH, DT, &
crew are making money off of me b/c of the lousy doc. OTH, I'm making money b/c
of Rails (and more than $23)...
If the Docs are lousy, please submit a patch to improve them, I'll
gladly apply it. Otherwise I'll get back to working long hours on an
open source project for free.

--
Cheers

Koz
Curtis Spendlove
2006-05-06 01:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Koziarski
If the Docs are lousy, please submit a patch to improve them, I'll
gladly apply it. Otherwise I'll get back to working long hours on an
open source project for free.
An excellent point. I for one salute the hard work that has already
gone into Rails and will continue to do so. Authors don't rake in huge
amounts of cash due to book deals... And it is *expensive* to do an
initial print run (though subsequent runs are much cheaper). If you
don't want to pay for a brand name, settle for a generic; but realize
the impact it will have. The book is *well* worth the money. There are
many people who donate to the Rails community without seeing a cent back
for their personal time. It's called sacrifice, and it's good for your
soul... :: grin :: I applaud their efforts...their souls will be
cradled in the bosom of Karma.

While the docs for PHP, MSDN, and some of the other languages out there
may be "better" than those for Ruby / Rails, they didn't start out that
way. I also don't see anyone suggesting that they will create a
brilliant documentation repository for their first Rails app and donate
it to the community. We are all part of the community. Don't bitch
about it, spend your effort improving it. The reason I have not yet is
because I don't feel comfortable that I know enough best practices...but
eventually I will.


-Curtis
Ajai Khattri
2006-05-08 01:46:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Fyffe
While you are sifting, I will be reading the answer in my book, saving
myself time. I bet I save more than $23 worth of my time. How much
will your sifting cost you?
People keep making statements like the above, but for people who are not
Rails developers and are trying learn this on their own time the
argument is meaningless...
--
A
David Sulc
2006-05-06 15:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Maybe the easiest solution is to buy the PDF ? You can then upgrade it
for free when a new edition comes out. See
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/pdf_update_faq.html

I don't think a lot of publishers do that, and no garage I have heard of
does...
Eden Brandeis
2006-05-06 15:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Quick correction:

"* We offer free updates on all PDFs we supply (within the same edition).* "

That means you cannot get a free upgrade from V1 to V2 or V2 to V3. It only
covers updates within a version.
Post by David Sulc
Maybe the easiest solution is to buy the PDF ? You can then upgrade it
for free when a new edition comes out. See
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/starter_kit/faqs/pdf_update_faq.html
I don't think a lot of publishers do that, and no garage I have heard of
does...
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Rails mailing list
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Chris Schumann
2006-05-07 18:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:16:12 -0700
...
various newsgroups. Chris, you mentioned something about
"AWDWR 4/06 update".
It sounds like a good idea but are you willing to lead that
effort? Please understand that I'm not trying to pick on
anyone on the mailing list. OK?
I am not willing... nor able at this point. I'm not trying to complain. I've
stated my feeling. I certainly didn't moan or groan.

Part of my reason to not purchase v2 is that v1 is so very good that I just
won't need v2 for some time. What a compliment!

I also wrote that I couldn't think of a better-but-still-practical way to
publish new works. Indeed kudos to Dave for even bothering to keep the
literature up to date on a fast-moving target.

If the rest of us put the same kind of serious effort into the wiki, there'd
be no need for the book.
Open-source is about contributing towards the project (i.e. rails
development) instead of being a backseat driver. One way of
contributing is purchasing some form of the book or providing
feedback for it.
I disagree with this point. Buying a book support the author, not the
community. If that author happens to spend time on improving the software,
yay for us, but it could just as well be two different people. In fact, some
might see something nefarious about a developer changing code so fast that
he has to write a book about it twice a year. Me? I'm happy to have a decent
reference to buy.

Chris
Conrad Taylor
2006-05-10 18:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Chris, I guess you didn't understand my comment in whole because I never
said that it (i.e the book) didn't support the community. It should be
logical that it supports the community. Also, it should be logical as to
how it supports the author. Next, I disagree with your statement that a
wiki can replace a book. For example, I take alot of intercontinental
flights where there's zero internet access. Thus, I use this time to read,
design, and implement during these long flights and I'm sure that there are
others that do the same. In short, there will allways be need for books
because it allows us to digest information when we cannot be online.

Peace,

-Conrad
Post by Chris Schumann
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:16:12 -0700
...
various newsgroups. Chris, you mentioned something about
"AWDWR 4/06 update".
It sounds like a good idea but are you willing to lead that
effort? Please understand that I'm not trying to pick on
anyone on the mailing list. OK?
I am not willing... nor able at this point. I'm not trying to complain. I've
stated my feeling. I certainly didn't moan or groan.
Part of my reason to not purchase v2 is that v1 is so very good that I just
won't need v2 for some time. What a compliment!
I also wrote that I couldn't think of a better-but-still-practical way to
publish new works. Indeed kudos to Dave for even bothering to keep the
literature up to date on a fast-moving target.
If the rest of us put the same kind of serious effort into the wiki, there'd
be no need for the book.
Open-source is about contributing towards the project (i.e. rails
development) instead of being a backseat driver. One way of
contributing is purchasing some form of the book or providing
feedback for it.
I disagree with this point. Buying a book support the author, not the
community. If that author happens to spend time on improving the software,
yay for us, but it could just as well be two different people. In fact, some
might see something nefarious about a developer changing code so fast that
he has to write a book about it twice a year. Me? I'm happy to have a decent
reference to buy.
Chris
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